Christians Pondering The Jewish Soul -- Again

geoffff

Ah dear. They are at it again at Connexions.. Read the post and the comments.

Is Zionism integral to Judaism?,  they ask.

If  they spent a fraction of the time pondering the Christian soul it might be healthier for both them and Jews.

"From its inception Zionism had been always one of a variety of Jewish narratives of identity. Anti- or non-Zionist narratives always existed, both in Europe and the U.S., from Bundists, Yiddishists, German nationalists, universalist and internationalists of various stripes, Marxists, American assimilationists (i.e. classical Reform Judaism), ultra-Traditionalists from Aguddat Yisrael, to Habad, to various communities of Hungarian Orthodoxy now largely coalesced around Satmar Hasidism."


It really is so sad. The point?

If they want Israelis to be robbed of their nationhood and submit to  some form of inferior station, alone of all free people, then you would think they would muster the courage to say so. Instead they resort to dhimmified Jews or Jews in the grip of Oslo Syndrome to do it for them. 


My comment:


Funny.

I was just going to write a post at the Joint about how antizionist and antisemitic Christians and secular anti-Western leftists always, ... and its got to the point that it is very nearly  always ... , use  Jews as proxies to deliver their true inner thoughts about Israel and therefore about Jews.

The post was to be inspired by Richard's post here and I just came back for another look and behold:

Point proven.

Kim. Silly him.


Do they really need Jews to formulate and enunciate their thoughts for them? No matter how brilliant, audacious and hugely humane they are?


I don't think so.

There's something else at play here.

There must be something in the European soul that thrills at the sight of a Jew attacking the Jews. Could it be the Christian part of that soul?

I can think of no other case where this happens.

At the beginning of the 20th century over 90% of the world's Jews lived as sub-citizens with special laws in Christian and Muslim lands with no civil liberties or human rights least of all freedom of expression.

By the end of the century all but a handful live in secular liberal democracies where they can pretty much say what they like just like everyone else. So they do.

And just like all people who are free they say all sorts of things and sometimes they say the most appalling  nonsense .  Just like all other people. Or are you suggesting there is some different standard here?

These books exist because there is a market. Part of that would be the push market of the universities but can there be any doubt that there is a thrill market out there for Jewish self flagellation?

Could part of that market be Christian? After all there is a history. Not all that distant either. Any perversion is possible.

It's got to the point where there is a market in being a "Jew"  and really it is now beyond what would be funnier than Abbott and Costello if it wasn't so scary.

I blogged recently  about something  I saw on Mondoweiss while amusing myself there one evening.

An American who was born and raised Jewish  had left the religion and  become an atheist  and Communist in the 1950's while a Yale student had just converted to Christianity  in an Anglican Church in Harlem on American Independence Day.

It was the funniest thing I had seen all year until you think about it a little. Then it gets a  little scary.

Before his conversion he was as Jewish as Karl Marx or Leon Trotsky.  Now he's a Christian. He's still a Communist of course. Given that he's an Anglican he could still be an atheist for all I know but get this.

He still identifies as a Jew.

Oh I almost forgot. He has published a few Israel bashing books. Sigh.

There has to be a market for these books. It has to be a thrill market. You couldn't be surprised if they have ones with pictures under the counter.

At the end of the day you either accept that people have the right to live in their own free liberal democracies, starting with the Israelis, or you do not. You either are a supporter of human rights or you are not.

Israel is the only remaining  homeland for Jewish refugees from Muslim lands in the Middle East and who comprise half the county's Jewish population.  They are free because it is a secular state. It is not perfect but any thought of submitting by duress of state to  God's law at this stage of the ascent of man is abhorrent.

An abomination.

As it would be in every other Western country.

Now that the Arab Muslims have finally said no to another Muslim state along side the secular Jewish national home it is the only question to answer. "Palestine" is dead. There is no reason to suppose it wasn't a lie from the very start.

Do you really think surrendering Israel and the Jews to them will appease them even if they were yours to surrender?

Do you seriously believe that would ease the grievance? Do you think the world would be better off without them? What else would you surrender?

If that is what you think then why are you so coy about saying it? Why do you appear to be using Jews to say it for you? Or at least think it for you?

hat tip Daphne Anson

cross posted Israel Thrives

update

This Christian minister thinks this is an allegation of antisemitism. Go figure.

I think it has finally got to the point that a clear indicator of the presence of antisemitism is the pre emptive denial of it.

Further update

Richard's comment


"geoffff - I deleted your comment because I can read and understand english. There was nothing pre-emptive about it. I have never said directly or indirectly that challenges the existence of the state of Israel. I do question that state’s policies and actions."


My modest reply



So do all Israelis question the state's policies and actions at one time or another  Richard. You know this. There is no no one who has ever suggested this is antisemitism. Pre emptively or not. That  is however incessantly denied.

If you do not challenge Israel's legitimacy or right to exist then may I suggest you make that very clear especially when you link to those  who most certainly  do and in fact have made a career of it .  If you link it you own it. Otherwise repudiate it.

Like you would any other racist  site and let me be clear about this. Perhaps even as late as 1947 antizionism could not necessarily be construed as antisemitism but by  2012 it most certainly is and increasingly many of us can see this and are saying so. That way lies terrible war.

If the word "Zionism" means anything at all  in 2012 then antizionism is just another form of antisemitism.

 There can be no escaping this.

Are you having difficulty making these basic moral distinctions ?  Like Stephen Sizer?

Further And Very Last Update!!!

I've been banned.

From A British Methodist tea party. Story of my life.

Ah well. Can't complain I suppose.. I wasn't invited in the first place. 

I've been banned for  anti non-antisemitism or something but I like to think it was for being impolite.

geofffffff: “If the word “Zionism” means anything at all in 2012 then antizionism is just another form of antisemitism” is just plain silliness. You’ve made your last comment on this thread.

Six "f"s.?

This fella is not stuffing around. That's more "f"s than there are "s"s in supersessionism  Even I have only got up to five and that was after a particularly bad night. 

Anyway we persevere :

My comments on his blog  have read by Richard and now by you but have been shielded from his readers.

It's odd isn't it?

Antizionism is the new antisemitism. 

The notion is so offensive to them that they ban it.

Or at least condemn it to what I guess is Methodist purgatory.  The "awaiting moderation" box. I had a Christian aunt like that. A lovely old lady.

geoffff 10.03.12 at 10:49 pm

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Perhaps it might help to clarify your thinking if you defined what you mean by “Zionism”.

33

geoffff 10.03.12 at 11:04 pm

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Is antizionism the new antisemitism?

Of course it is and I’m in good company in believing this.

“St. Paul’s Church is a historic site. Here, not only Martin Buber and Ernst Bloch, but also Alexander Mitscherlich and Thomas Mann, Amos Oz and Boualem Sansal were honored with prizes – each a worthy recipient. And today: Professor Judith Butler.

“But what happens? Frankfurt’s mayor takes to his heels and not only the Jewish community in Frankfurt, but also the Central Council of Jews in Germany boycott the ceremony. And even those who have supported Professor Butler with a petition, have thereby simultaneously signed a text which takes its distance from her. And with good reason!

“Prof. Butler openly says what she wants. Her most recent book, Parting Ways. Jewishness and the Critique of Zionism, concerns the Middle East conflict. In it, she makes it clear that she thinks the world would be a better place if there were no longer a Jewish state. Prof. Butler does not call for a Palestinian state next to Israel, but a bi-national, Muslim-dominated state instead of Israel.”

Matthias Kuntzel

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&ved=0CEwQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matthiaskuentzel.de%2Fcontents%2Fjudith-butler-and-the-new-anti-jewish-discourse&ei=wa9sUNupHo6UiAfkwIGQDg&usg=AFQjCNHpaWDRNh_6DwcI5uTNSzLKzAEH3Q

geoffff 10.03.12 at 11:04 pm

[comment deleted: You aren't listening. I did tell you that you'd made your last comment in this thread. I'm probably being unreasonable, but whatever you post here seems to arrive on at lat 3 other sites as well so I dare say you'll live. ~Richard]

I am listening Richard.

I'm ignoring you is all.

Not really.

Just not doing what you tell me to do is all.

I will of course join the conversation again on another thread if you will have me and the opportunity presents but for now allow me please to extract the last from the ban on this thread.

Thanks for that by the way. Nothing like a good ban to get the page views clicking..

I guess that's important for a political blog.

......

It's curious though how sacred it is to them -- the notion that at this stage of this old and ugly game  it is alright to vilify Zionism while simultaneously  holding that  this is not antisemitism of the most vile kind.

What the hell do they think Zionism is?

It's as if their minds are warped in some place in history rather than in the here and now.

It's also as if nothing has happened in the last hundred years and that global Jewishness  is not a very different thing now in every sense to what it was in 1912.

What is that Orwell said about Doublethink? The ability to hold with equal conviction two diametrically opposing positions in the same time and space.

Maybe that was the Dr Who corollary.  Anyway there's a lot of it about and in particular it seems on this remarkable and critical issue for humankind..

Whether Israel is worth it. Should Israel just.. you know .. go away.

It's a moral question for them because they must know Israel thinks Israel is worth it and there  are enough others who think the same to make the issue the subject of a serious shooting war if Israel was not already serious enough on her own.. That should be the end of rational discussion.

It should be the end of any internal conflict as well you should think especially if they are Christians and therefore bound by religious conviction to be on the side of peace. That way lies war. This way lies the best chance for peace. Accept it. Live with it. Celebrate it.

Maybe then they will get the message.


And yet they go on and on.

Imagine for a moment that it was within their power to  dismantle Israel. . You can be certain Western antizionists of all stripes do or fantasise  about it more likely. . No doubt while reading all those books by self flagellating Jews.  You can almost see Antony Loewenstein drooling. . It's quite disgusting, If it wasn't for Balfour and Oslo it would be about the greatest fraud since 1912.

They keep on going back to the same ring of names. You could name all the antizionist intellectuals who present as Jews and who present in English and probably a few others as well from memory. They keep on popping up all the time. They keep on keeping on. There has to be a market for the pictures.  Maybe that's what U-Tube  is about.

It does not  impress me in the slightest  that these men and women who vilify Israel and talk of its removal are Jews. Why should it. Does it impress you? Why is it that they behave as if it should impress anyone.  Why does it impress them?

 Haven't we moved beyond that. What are they thinking? That the Jews are a tribe? That some how they are different?

In most cases they are committed Communists or other party line political extremists anyway. Israel and the Jews are not even the start of what they would push under a passing bus if they could.  A fair sprinkling of the others are fringe religious lunatics with no place in politics and since they don't even vote should count not at all.

Why are they so fascinated by Jews attacking Israel and the Jews? They have been pondering the Jewish soul for evidence that it does not include Zionism at Connexions and I reckon that's fair enough..

But to take some kind of comfort in the fact that so many in the Israel is evil and must go camp are Jews, something beyond Schadenfreude, is to not only not get modern Jewishness as it is in the here and now but frankly is to exhibit something pretty creepy.

Which is enough for a separate post . I'll leave this here and send it to Richard on the banned thread where I'm being punished for anti non-antisemitism.

I may as well take advantage of this banned thing while I can so here goes:.


Antizionism is the new antisemitism.

Shut up you guys. That is banned in polite circles.